The American War of Independence / Revolutionary war etc is still fairly new to me and so far I’ve not been able to get satisfactory answers to a couple of pretty basic questions regarding Grenadiers.
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| A grenadeless grenadier |
If anyone is able to shed some light on the following I’d really appreciate it.
1. British grenadiers used to throw grenades, hence the name, which must have been pretty useful in assaults. Grenadiers are still a « thing » in the AWI period but they no longer seem to use grenades. When did grenades fall out of use…and why? I note that in the AWI they still seemed to have been equipped with vestigial items like match cases.
2. In the AWI the British formed composite grenadier battalions by nicking the grenadier companies from their parent line regiments and lumping them together in a semi temporary formation. Did these grenadier composite battalions have a specific unit flag given their disparate nature?
3. American regiments of the period seem to have included light companies like the British, but not grenadiers. Why would that be?
No prizes on offer I’m afraid cos I’m a retired old skinflint with nothing anyone would want, however you might experience a faint warm glow from enriching my life with answers to these perplexing issues.
Ta mutchly, in anticipation.
I could shed my views but they might not be the definitive answers. I will wait for others to chime in.
ReplyDeleteThanks Jonathan, not a lot of opinions so far!
DeleteGrenadiers pretty much lost their function as grenade throwers almost as soon as they got their designation, c 1700.
ReplyDeleteDon’t know about colours.
Don’t really know why the Americans didn’t do grenadiers, but I suspect it was to do with NOT hiving off the best men.
Chris/Nundanket
And then just as I’m typing my reply to JF in comes Chris! Thanks for the input! Still not sure why grenades were no longer a thing. Not going to give my grenadier battalion a flag. Happy to confirm American continentals didn’t have grenadiers, your reasoning seems sound to me Chris.
DeleteMorning mate. Done a lot of AWI in my time! British Grenadiers in the war were not quite the resplendent chaps as often represented, for a start the lovely fur caps were left in storage aboard ship and a standard tricorne was issued. Being somewhat superior though they elected to unpin the brim and having removed the lace - a common practice - and then pin up the left hand (musket drill) side only using their brass grenadier badges for a rather jaunty look! Peter Pig range represents this perfectly, well worth a look at the range for inspiration as it's pretty damn perfect! No colours were carried in the colonies either so you have composite battalions of Grenadiers with jaunty hats and no flags. Coat tails were also commonly cut down for practicality too. Don't recall accounts of grenade use during the war to be honest. Hope this helps?
ReplyDeleteLee.
Ooh thanks Lee. My chaps are 10mm Pendraken and sadly I’ve deployed all my grenadiers so far with their bearskins on…dagnabbit! Good to know about the colours mind you! I was planning to do a good proportion of my light bobs in the pinned up hats. Thanks for chiming in.
DeleteIn my early morning pre coffee bleary eyed hast I may have had the Foot Guard in mind when replying when describing the composite grenadier battalions but still very much the same for line regiment grenadier companies. Got to love those fur caps of course, but I guess it would have been a shame to spoil them :) Regulation dress gradually relaxed as the war progressed of course and so the nice neat tricorne became the common 'round hat' worn unpinned and floppy! Hat lace was removed for some practical reason too, but I just can't remember why and what they used it for? Btw, my 28mm Grenadiers had caps too after all that.
DeleteOk, well seeing you are too bone idle to look, JBM, I did it for you - I am not surprised you had so much trouble with redcaps if this is typical of your attitude!
ReplyDeleteWhy did grenadiers stop using grenades?
Grenade usage declined in the 18th century, a fact that can be attributed to the improved effectiveness of infantry line tactics and flintlock technology. The need for elite assault troops remained, however, and the existing grenadier companies were used for this purpose.
2 has been answered and 3 is either - the Americans were too egalitarian to have elite companies OR they didn't have any troops good enough to qualify as elite - pick your preference based on national prejudices!
Lolz - you cheeky bugger! I’ll go with the egalitarian aspect since all the Americans I’ve met so far have been jolly nice. Thanks for enlightening me yet further.
ReplyDelete1: grenades went out of fashion when the lower class soldiers started using them to blow up rats nests and in 'low class' productions on stage / AWI style social media. therefore the high class posh soldiers went on to the next thing to make them better than the others.
ReplyDelete2: yes they made their flags out of underwear; they got extra cool points if it was ladies underwear.
3: 'Americans' were, and we still are, waaaaay to cool to follow stuffy British traditions so the American army did own formation called 'way coolers' which as the name implies, are way cooler than grenadiers.
Well that’s got to be gospel coming from an actual real life American. 1. Grenades, point taken, a very plausible explanation. 2. Flags - I’ll go back and redo my unit flags out of some of my old Y fronts now I know. Gotta be as authentic as I can. 3. In gratitude for your piercing insight my newly completed 2nd New Hampshire Continentals will henceforth be known as the “Way Coolers”. :-)
Delete3. I must politely point out that many Serious Military Historians, specializing in this field, widely agree that our American Continental Line were every bit the equal of the previously vaunted British Grenadiers. (Why do you think they copied our way cooler hats?) Our militia was widely equal to your professional Line units. Really, you can trust me on this! I’ve done extensive research. ; - D
ReplyDelete~ Tom T
Thank you Tom, it’s always good to get unbiased extensively researched facts like this. I shall rate all American units as elite from this point forward … excepting any Indians who I’ll downgrade to first rate. Lolz. :-)
DeleteAs Keith said drill improved and grenades went away, the US were always skint during the war and anything that might have proved expensive was avoided, might be the answer?
ReplyDeleteBest Iain
Actually cost never occurred to me, but that may well have played a part. I think they’ve made up for that on defence spending over the years mind you!
DeleteThere were too many trees n rock walls to hide behind in New England to make grenades effective. That's our story and we're sticking to it . No grenades, no Grenadiers.
ReplyDeleteLolz - it’s a good an explanation as any Pancerni, thanks for dropping by!
DeleteLate to the party as always, as has been stated improved tactics and weapons phased out the grenades, the French withdrawing them in 1705. Although still used but still used by most armies in sieges, fortified positions etc. Composite battalions didn’t carry standards. Of course the Grenadier companies generally picked form the biggest men etc. and like you, you have to keep those fur caps, history or not they look so good they’ve got to be on the battlefield. I couldn’t comment on why the Americans didn’t have grenadiers, most of my thoughts would be met with howls of outrage by our cousins from across the pond
ReplyDeleteLate to the party, yes, but you always bring a bottle so you are always welcome! I couldn’t get my head around why grenades were not apparently being used but as you’ve now explained, in some situations they still were - just not en masse in every situation. Hope you are keeping well mate.
DeleteEver later to the party, but 1/. what everyone else has said... basically the muskets got better, so the fighting distances/ranges got (marginally) longer, and as a result a close quarters weapon like the grenade lost it's effectiveness (except in trench/siege scenarios) 2/ they're your little metal men do what you wish - my grenadiers (and fusiliers) have bearskins - I was bought up on Airfix.. :o) F.w.i.w. I would have been surprised if there wasn't some kind of colour/ensign - purely to act as a rallying point? Composite grenadier battalions were not a new thing by the way, Marlborough used them for sure.. 3/. Grenadiers in the US army? I always assumed it was because there was no history/legacy of such in the US army, and therefore no one assumed they needed them - also they had enough issues keeping recruits in the field and equipped without worrying about grenadiers...
ReplyDelete